Arguing faith
I have often said that I respect people's faith, and I do. If their beliefs bring them comfort and joy, and if they don't spend their time trying to impose it on others through oppression, believe away. I also refuse to argue religion. Faith is just that - faith. It doesn't have to be based on any type of fact. That's why it's called faith. The moment people bring faith into the debate, the debate is automatically over, because you can't argue with someone whose side boils down to "this is what I believe no matter how much scientific fact you toss at me."
I've never been able to do that. I always question. I always want answers. Even as a kid, when dragged to Temple, I sat there and fidgeted, because people FELT God, and I didn't. I didn't understand how people could put their entire trust in an old book without a shred of actual scientific proof that it was somehow written by God (or man inspired by God).
But it gave them peace. It made them happy. My parents were at peace and happy to be able to be Jewish without the persecution and fear they experienced in the Soviet Union. If it makes them happy, who am I to question it, and why bother? I followed my path, and they followed theirs. And it's just fine.
They call me on high holidays and send me greetings. It makes them feel good, and that's fine too. It's a peace, and it's a nice one. I don't debate their faith with them, and they leave me to my questioning and seeking.
What I DO resent (aside from frothing fundamentalist fruitcakes who seek to impose their beliefs on free people and free minds through coercion and force) is those who claim that without God there is no morality, and that if I'm not a believer, I somehow can't be a moral person. That, to me, is insulting, rude and superciliously ignorant.
When I adopted my two daughters, I've often had people tell me how extraordinary it was - how not everyone would do that for two kids they barely knew just to rescue them from a horrible situation. But guess what! I don't feel that rescuing two little kids from a household of neglect and drugs is extraordinary. It's HUMAN and is the STANDARD, not the exception! I'm not saying this to brag and to show what a good person I am. I'm telling you this in order to emphasize the fact that I did this because it is the right thing to do - not because God told me it was good, not because the Bible told me that I'd go to heaven, and not because any kind of ancient Jewish text told me that I must do good works.
I know it was the right thing to do, because of the nature of the human being - because of who we are - because I have a rational, thinking mind - because my rational, logical thought tells me that innocent children who depend on their parents for their survival need parents who actually care for them. That is justice. It's not divine justice. It's just justice. It is right based on the fact that we are human beings, and that to achieve the joy that is the purpose of life, it is right to do what is necessary to perpetuate that goal.
Joy is not an arbitrary concept. Yes, it is subjective, but by the nature of right and wrong, if everyone has a simultaneous right to joy, no one has the right to attain that joy at the expense of others, and by the violation of their rights. This is not a concept created by any kind of deity. It's logical and rational.
I teach my kids right from wrong. Not based on any religious concept, but based on objective rights and wrongs.
It is wrong to steal what is not yours. You haven't earned it. It does not belong to you. You don't need God to figure it out. You need thought and logic!
It is wrong to lie and cheat. It is disrespectful to the recipient of said lies. It hurts those whom you deceive. Cheating, meanwhile, unfairly tilts the playing field in your favor at the expense of someone else. It gives you an unfair advantage and takes away what rightfully belongs to someone else. It's a betrayal of the principles of justice.
I love my kids. I'm highly involved in their lives. I work hard, and I do my best to earn my salary. I help others when I'm able. I like to think I'm a good friend. I'm not perfect, but no one is, and I do my best - NOT because some book claims some deity tells me, but because it is the right thing to do. It is a function of being human. Those who do not recognize objective rights and wrongs, are actually acting contrary to their nature.
I do all this because of rational self interest. Period. I do these things because they are a function of being human - to perpetuating life and living it to its fullest.
Is someone honestly going to tell me that because I strive to be the best person I possibly can, but I do it because it is the right thing to do, and not because some guy in a white sheet up in heaven tells me so, that I'm going to burn in hell for eternity???
It doesn't make sense, and it never will.
We are the sum of our actions, and we are what we do. If we want to change what we are, we must change what we do. My music teacher told me this in high school, and it holds true today. And I'm insulted and repulsed by those who claim I'm not a moral person because I'm not a believer in God!
I have lost good friends because they claimed they were "sad for me," because they wouldn't see me in heaven! I can't abide by that kind of zealotry, and I never will! That kind of death cult is contrary to the nature of human beings - it is contrary to life. When you live your life in order to be happy in death, you are abdicating the very goal of living in favor of awaiting to die. If that's what keeps you going, good! Go for it.
Just don't expect me to convert to that way of thinking or to accept the fact that I'm going to hell for it.
I've never been able to do that. I always question. I always want answers. Even as a kid, when dragged to Temple, I sat there and fidgeted, because people FELT God, and I didn't. I didn't understand how people could put their entire trust in an old book without a shred of actual scientific proof that it was somehow written by God (or man inspired by God).
But it gave them peace. It made them happy. My parents were at peace and happy to be able to be Jewish without the persecution and fear they experienced in the Soviet Union. If it makes them happy, who am I to question it, and why bother? I followed my path, and they followed theirs. And it's just fine.
They call me on high holidays and send me greetings. It makes them feel good, and that's fine too. It's a peace, and it's a nice one. I don't debate their faith with them, and they leave me to my questioning and seeking.
What I DO resent (aside from frothing fundamentalist fruitcakes who seek to impose their beliefs on free people and free minds through coercion and force) is those who claim that without God there is no morality, and that if I'm not a believer, I somehow can't be a moral person. That, to me, is insulting, rude and superciliously ignorant.
When I adopted my two daughters, I've often had people tell me how extraordinary it was - how not everyone would do that for two kids they barely knew just to rescue them from a horrible situation. But guess what! I don't feel that rescuing two little kids from a household of neglect and drugs is extraordinary. It's HUMAN and is the STANDARD, not the exception! I'm not saying this to brag and to show what a good person I am. I'm telling you this in order to emphasize the fact that I did this because it is the right thing to do - not because God told me it was good, not because the Bible told me that I'd go to heaven, and not because any kind of ancient Jewish text told me that I must do good works.
I know it was the right thing to do, because of the nature of the human being - because of who we are - because I have a rational, thinking mind - because my rational, logical thought tells me that innocent children who depend on their parents for their survival need parents who actually care for them. That is justice. It's not divine justice. It's just justice. It is right based on the fact that we are human beings, and that to achieve the joy that is the purpose of life, it is right to do what is necessary to perpetuate that goal.
Joy is not an arbitrary concept. Yes, it is subjective, but by the nature of right and wrong, if everyone has a simultaneous right to joy, no one has the right to attain that joy at the expense of others, and by the violation of their rights. This is not a concept created by any kind of deity. It's logical and rational.
I teach my kids right from wrong. Not based on any religious concept, but based on objective rights and wrongs.
It is wrong to steal what is not yours. You haven't earned it. It does not belong to you. You don't need God to figure it out. You need thought and logic!
It is wrong to lie and cheat. It is disrespectful to the recipient of said lies. It hurts those whom you deceive. Cheating, meanwhile, unfairly tilts the playing field in your favor at the expense of someone else. It gives you an unfair advantage and takes away what rightfully belongs to someone else. It's a betrayal of the principles of justice.
I love my kids. I'm highly involved in their lives. I work hard, and I do my best to earn my salary. I help others when I'm able. I like to think I'm a good friend. I'm not perfect, but no one is, and I do my best - NOT because some book claims some deity tells me, but because it is the right thing to do. It is a function of being human. Those who do not recognize objective rights and wrongs, are actually acting contrary to their nature.
I do all this because of rational self interest. Period. I do these things because they are a function of being human - to perpetuating life and living it to its fullest.
Is someone honestly going to tell me that because I strive to be the best person I possibly can, but I do it because it is the right thing to do, and not because some guy in a white sheet up in heaven tells me so, that I'm going to burn in hell for eternity???
It doesn't make sense, and it never will.
We are the sum of our actions, and we are what we do. If we want to change what we are, we must change what we do. My music teacher told me this in high school, and it holds true today. And I'm insulted and repulsed by those who claim I'm not a moral person because I'm not a believer in God!
I have lost good friends because they claimed they were "sad for me," because they wouldn't see me in heaven! I can't abide by that kind of zealotry, and I never will! That kind of death cult is contrary to the nature of human beings - it is contrary to life. When you live your life in order to be happy in death, you are abdicating the very goal of living in favor of awaiting to die. If that's what keeps you going, good! Go for it.
Just don't expect me to convert to that way of thinking or to accept the fact that I'm going to hell for it.
Ma'am,
My apologies for any implication that you were ANY less moral than me, or that I expect you to "turn or burn", so to speak. In fact, I don't figure it is my place to "convert" anyone, so I'm merely pointing out my worldview. Somehow you find my presentation offensive. I'm sorry for that.
My only (or at least my MAIN) point is that atheism (or agnosticism, or Randism, or humanism...or WHATEVER) leaves a kind of void where the ultimate origin of life is concerned. It will only take you so far back in time...and then it cannot go any farther. What existed BEFORE the Big Bang...or was all matter and energy created out of nothing? THAT is the sticking point for me.
Thing is, you've clearly decided that I'm being intellectually dishonest, because this position (wanting to go behind the Big Bang so to speak) somehow equates to "this is what I believe no matter how much scientific fact you toss at me." I may be in the minority among us frothing fundamentalists, but I kinda beleive that just maybe there is room for evolution IN the Creation storyline. I mean, how do I know the mechanics of how God created all this? Could he have used and evolutionary mechanism...sure. See here is where I get it from both sides. Since I don't beleive that the whole universe was created in 6 literal 24 hour periods (and there is ample scriptural backup on the elasticity of time from God's perspective), an evolutionary process could have indeed be involved. So the Frothers think me a heretic. BUT, since I don't think that even PROVING the theory of evolution DISPROVES the existence of God, you'll accuse me of being intellectually dishonest (....that whole "no matter how much scientific proof I throw at him...)
So you're right, it all boils down to "faith". I'm perfectly ok with teaching both creation (or ID if we must be PC) and evolution as THEORIES..since it requires an equal amount of faith to believe in God or that my great-great-great-grandfather, may times removed, was a monkey.
Lastly, again, I do not mean to suggest that you're immoral, or in any way "bad". Quite the contrary as a matter of fact. I'm just trying to let you know that some of us HAVE put a great deal of thought into our faith, easily as much thought as anyone who ultimately rejects faith. Not all of us frothing fundamentalists are fucktards after all.
And the only reason you will be damned to hell is for shamelessly flaunting your bare collarbones on the inner-webz
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Please don't apologize. YOU didn't offend me. You merely reminded me of something I meant to write for a while.
As far as the "void" about the very beginnings of the universe, that is why we study and we learn. We research and we discover new things gradually. Just because we haven't actually discovered what existed before the big bang (I haven't even read anything about it) doesn't mean that it CAN'T be explained yet. When man didn't know what thunderstorms were, he attributed them to anger of the Gods. Science explained all that later. Simple..
And NO, I wasn't implying you were intellectually dishonest, but simply that people of faith base their views on faith - sometimes unshakeably so. For instance, did you read the links I provided on evolution - links that provide factual proof? People of faith can look at that evidence and choose not to believe in the factual evidence supporting evolution. They can also look at creationism as science, even though it requires faith and is refuted by scientific evidence and believe in it.
No, it does not require the same faith to know that evolution is fact supported by existing evidence and the faith required to believe that a being up in the sky created us all. For the record, I don't mind creationism being taught in school - IN RELIGION CLASS - for those who CHOOSE to take it. But to teach it right alongside evolution, which is supported by scientific fact requires FAITH.
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shifty1,
With a moniker like that, should I be concerned already...(lol)
"My only (or at least my MAIN) point is that atheism (or agnosticism, or Randism, or humanism...or WHATEVER) leaves a kind of void where the ultimate origin of life is concerned. It will only take you so far back in time...and then it cannot go any farther. What existed BEFORE the Big Bang...or was all matter and energy created out of nothing? THAT is the sticking point for me."
Work on that "sticking point" and you might find your "peace-of-mind" there. You appear overly sensitive on the subject.
RE your last comment:
"And the only reason you will be damned to hell is for shamelessly flaunting your bare collarbones on the inner-webz
Hopefully it was meant 'tongue-in-cheek'. If so, it wasn't necessary. If not, I think you have a problem, IMO.
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Of COURSE he meant it tongue-in-cheek! It's a running joke between us lately. LOL
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OF COURSE I knew that!!
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Nicki,
A well written post Rebelette!
Were you reading my mind when you wrote this? These are my thoughts to a "T".
Enjoy your parenthood as you obviously do. In the end, it is the only thing that matters. My guys are 18 & 17 and the reason I breathe. If I can just hang in there a little longer, they might raise me to be a 'not-a-bad' Dad.
I'll let you know how I turn out!
8>)
FoC
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Sounds like you're turning out pretty good already!
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Personally, I have a belief in God due to personal experiences that were convincing to me. I have a lot of friends that 'believe' because it's just the way they were brought up. I don't agree with organized religions, and don't put myself in them.
I believe both in God creating the world, and in evolution as the way most everything got here in the shape it's in. A religion that can't reconcile those doesn't do much thinking, and I stay away from that type of person.
As for you being moral and doing the right thing because it's the human thing to do, I tend to lean towards the idea that mankind was created in God's image and was actually created GOOD, and that most evil in the world is caused by people straying away from the basic good nature we were created with.
So perhaps morality originally flows from God, but it's part of OUR nature and anyone who says you can't be moral and just and upright without believing in their particular flavor of deity is performing some mental masturbation to get there.
As for the death cult thing, you're absolutely right. In my belief system, God put us here to live the best life we can, and to enjoy the things He's put here for us. A person should live a righteous life only because it actually has rewards in THIS life. The possibility of it making a difference in the next is just an added benefit. For example, we should enjoy food and wine, but avoid gluttony and drunkenness because of the health problems it creates. Enjoy sex, but don't get promiscuous because of STDs. Etc, etc.
Excellent column, I enjoy your work.
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There are a lot of theories out there to explain why we are, who we are and why we're here. It's human nature to want to explore. It's when we STOP exploring and learning that we begin to stagnate.
Thanks for your kind comments.
Cheers!
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First, I don't think you meant "I don't feel ...is HUMAN and is the STANDARD". I think you probably meant that it is.
Second, I am one of those "frothing fundamentalist fruitcakes " you mention. I don't remember ever commenting on your morality. Any "frothing fundamentalist fruitcake" who did doesn't understand his or her own religion.
That said, I find you to be another Josh Sugerman. He doesn't want to have guns so I shouldn't either. He doesn't believe in the 2nd amendment so anyone who does is wrong. You don't believe in God so all who do are not only wrong in their beliefs but somehow cause you offense. I found your post to be as offensive as you apparently found the comments of whoever preached to you.
Now I am sure you are going to say "All I said is that it isn't for me." What I took away was that you think if I believe I am superciliously ignorant, that my belief is only "because the Bible told me that I'd go to heaven",that I am not "It's logical and rational", and that I am "abdicating the very goal of living in favor of awaiting to die. "
You say "I'm opinionated, stubborn, passionate, sometimes temperamental, fair and dedicated to my family and my country."
Take out the word fair. It no longer fits.
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First, thanks for noting the typo. It's fixed.
Second, if you haven't commented on my morality, then you're not a "frothing fundamentalist fruitcake." You're merely a religious person.
The fact that I think you're wrong on faith doesn't compel me to somehow force you to believe otherwise.
And I DO take exception to your comparing me to Sugarmann. The comparison is insulting as well as completely disingenuous. The fact that I don't believe in God has NEVER prompted me to force you not to. But in your frothing zeal to defend your faith, you compare me to a royal scumbag, and I do find you repugnant just for that reason.
I don't need to say that all I've written isn't meant for you. It obviously is.
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"You don't believe in God so all who do are not only wrong in their beliefs but somehow cause you offense."
Robby-baby,
I'll just quote another post from another thread.....
"Way to go frothing fundamentalist f-tards![this would be YOU Robert...or shall I call you Rev. Phelps?] Thanks a pantsload for helping out the cause. Its always appreciated when you take a verse of scripture totally out of context and use it to bludgeon someone into the little box you think God wants them in. I seem to recall some guy dying a couple thousand years ago to put an end to all this crap. Something about a cross and an empty tomb....oh yeah. THAT WAS ME!! SO thanks again for all the stellar work you folks are doing...I'll remember it come judgement day. You might want to stock up on you flame-resistant clothing...just sayin.
Love, Jesus."
You say our Hostess with the mostest(guns that is...) thinks that you're "superciliously ignorant"? Nah..just the normal kind of ignorant! And thanks for provin' her point!
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Dammit! I was just eating a chocolate-covered almond, and I spit it all over my screen! LOL!!!!
But totally worth it. I'll just have to get another one!
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Oh hell Nicki...we're evil overlords remember...Just go liberate one from the nearest retail outlet!
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"frothing zeal"? What frothing zeal? What defense of my faith? I merely said I had not commented on your morality.
I said I found your comments insulting and I do. I said I found you hypocritical because you seem willing to do to those who hold views what you say they did to you. That is why I compared you to Sugarmann.
Explain to me how Josh and you differ. He sees only his point of view and insults those he disagrees with. Do you honestly think your diatribe wasn't insulting? Tell me your basic thesis wasn't "I can't help it if you are dumb enough to believe in superstition but I don't so I look down on you rather than vice versa?" You use phrases like "frothing zeal", "nsulting, rude and superciliously ignorant", "because the Bible told me that I'd go to heaven", "death cult", & "live your life in order to be happy in death, you are abdicating the very goal of living in favor of awaiting to die". He thinks he has the only correct view and anyone who doesn't agree with him is wrong.
So, if somehow you can say all that you said and feel that you aren't dismissing anyone that doesn't hold your view as somehow stupid and disingenuous then obviously I was wrong and I apologize. Just point out what part I missed that would keep me from feeling that way. Or you could just rail and insult me again. That's always good for proving that you are the reasonable one and those who don't agree with you are wrong.
And for shifty1. Was there a point there?
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What frothing zeal? The frothing zeal that compels you to compare someone who doesn't subscribe to your faith to someone who would use government force to disarm you. That's what zeal!
You can find my comments insulting all you want. It's a free country, and there is no right to not be insulted. I don't force anyone to subscribe to my lack of faith. I don't try to scare them into submission to a God in which they don't believe, like someone in authority tried to do to my son, by telling a little 10 year old boy that he was the enemy of God unless he found Jesus. I don't force anything on anyone. But I do exercise my right to say exactly WHY I don't believe. You find that to be comparable to Sugarmann? Then, yes. You ARE a moron.
Sugarmann seeks to impose his ignorance upon others via government force - by pressuring legislators to force us to comply with his ignorance. How is that different from those who seek to "amend the Constitution to reflect the will of the living God" -- that was a direct quote from Huckabee, by the way.
And yes, I find living your life only in anticipation of death as a good thing to be equivalent of a death cult. I find that blindly following a book while ignoring scientific evidence that happens to be contrary to what it says to be the purview of faith - not truth. But if it makes you feel good, if it gives you solace and joy, go for it! I'm definitely not going to be the one to stop you, nor will I be the one to argue with you about it, because as I said previously, you can't argue faith. That is a fact.
This is where you get to learn to read and comprehend. Here is what I said word for word:
That means that if you believe, if it brings you happiness, if you don't seek to force me to believe like you do, and if you don't act like a festering douche sore toward me because I don't happen to subscribe to your faith, we're fine. But if you sit here and make the spurious claim that I am somehow less moral than you are, because my reasons for doing the right thing don't include an imaginary being in the sky, then you're a jackass.
Be insulted all you want.
Your immediate kneejerk into insults about Josh Sugarmann tells me lots about which kind of religious person you are.
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Yes Rob,
I'm just sorry you didn't get it!
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See Rob,
I'm the snarky railer...it's sorta my schtick...it's what I DO....
Nicki..she'll just gut ya with pure logic.....
Yup..gutted just like a fish!
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Dude, I don't think he's smart enough to even get that! LOL
Or the fact that you happen to be one of those religious types that I apparently hate so much! LMAO!!!!!
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Hate me all you want....but you loves you some Adam Smith...dontcha!
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Okay. I got it now and I do owe you an apology. I am sorry.
I shouldn't have compared you to Sugermann because you aren't trying to change the laws like he is. (Incidentally, despite anything Huckabee might have said neither am I.).
And some misguided asshole scared your son so obviously everyone else with faith must be held accountable. You do have a valid right to be angry with that and you don't need my validation.
I admit that had I parsed your writing better I should have been able to see that it only looked like you were insulting those that held different views than you when actually that isn't what you meant at all. I was clearly wrong in when I thought that it seemed like you were looking down on those with faith.
The way you were able to tell all about the blindness of my faith and my ignoring scientific evidence with what little I wrote. Wow!
You are absolutely correct in that there is no right to not be insulted. But because we can have reasoned discourse without descending to insults we can come to a meeting of the minds like this.
Again, my sincere apologies for allowing what I perceived as insults to give me liberty to insult you in a kneejerk reaction. It won't happen again.
and Shifty1 --- ZOMG --- once I got beyond the impression that you were like a schoolyard kid saying "yeah, what she said!" and saw the true depth of your wit .... what can I say?
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Yeah..what She said! How dare you say I'm "like" a schoolyard kid....I obviously AM a schoolyard kid! So... yo' momma beee-otch!
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And by the way, Rob -
I said absolutely ZERO to say about the blindness of your faith based on YOUR comments.
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No ---- lets not get confused again --- I said once I got beyond seeing you like that -- now I see you ask the masked avenger of wit -- a skilled fencer of the spoken and written word --
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Is anyone else confused by all this??? What is a ZOMG?
And Rob, for the record, I would NEVER hold everyone else accountable for the one asshole who used his authority to try and scare my little boy into religion. Just fundie assholes who feel themselves justified in doing so (and the ones who think that rape victims deserved their lot because they wore revealing clothing and caused men to sin).
In any case, sarcasm is tough to discern online, so if you were sincere, apology accepted.
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I am loathe to break up the thread the three of you are carrying on, but one thought. Ok, I'm a born again Christian. It's how I define myself spiritually. But I have this thing about Mormonism. It doesn't make sense, not one iota of scientific proof, a cult, I could go on for days delineating the faults in their logic. But, you know what, as an American, if the SHTF, they would be some pretty damn good people to be in a foxhole with. They champion family values, and patriotism. Nicki, you and your daughters would be welcome in my foxhole anytime. Moral and patriotic triggerpullers are a blessing. Just sayin'..........
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Stephen - break up away! LOL
And I'd be glad to be in your foxhole. Just don't bogart the ammo, dude!
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"Is anyone else confused by all this??? What is a ZOMG?"
It's OMG, but the "Z" is added to simulate the accidental hitting of the "z" key while slamming on the left shift key while in a frothing rage. It's sorta like the !"!1!!11!!1!" you often see at the end of sarcastic online rage.
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Ah! Thanks, Vic - for educating the computer retarded! LOL I've always wondered about that one. Now I get it.
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